Defending a good man: the valid lineage of Fr. Michael Wiest (Carfora line)

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Published: [2023-10-03 Tue]

It is with a great deal of sadness that I write this. However, I must because we are nothing if we cannot defend our friends.

Political strife wreaked havoc on the independent chapel of Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove, California, in the months that followed the untimely death of Monsignor Patrick Perez on 18 November, 2021.

One horrible accusation from the fallout keeps recurring, despite how many times it has been refuted—the allegation that Fr. Michael Wiest, a dear friend of Monsignor Perez, is not really a priest. A web search of the name will likely yield the two anonymous threads where the allegation was originally conceived.

It is easy to refute the allegation because all the evidence has been out there for anyone willing to interview people and do some digging.

So, here is the valid lineage of Fr. Michael Wiest, former priest at Our Lady Help of Christians, dear friend of Monsignor Patrick Perez, and now canceled and saying mass every Sunday in refuge.

I, Kyle Terrien, make these statements in good faith with the best of my reasoning ability. I back them whenever I can with hard evidence. If any other evidence is desired, feel free to reach out, and I will do my best to connect you with someone who has it. If I am a liar, then Fr. Michael Wiest is a liar, and if Fr. Wiest is a liar, then Monsignor Patrick Perez was a liar for vouching for Fr. Wiest.

1. The valid lineage of Fr. Michael Wiest—Carfora line

The question of whether Fr. Michael Wiest is a real priest is a question of the validity of his holy orders. In the Catholic Church, sacraments work ex opere operato (from the work performed), and one must have proper matter, form, and intent in order for a sacrament to be valid. (Consult your favorite catechism.) As long as the three things are present, a sacrament is conferred. Validity is not concerned with anything else.

Since some traditional Catholics argue about whether Novus Ordo ordination has valid form, I will bypass the issue of Novus Ordo ordination entirely and jump straight to the traditional rite ordination of Fr. Michael Wiest.

(Note: “consecrated” means “made a bishop”, and “ordained” means “made a priest”.)

  • Archbishop Carmel Henry Carfora, North American Old Roman Catholic Bishop, validly consecrated Richard A. Marchenna.
  • Bishop Richard A. Marchenna validly consecrated Bishop Schweikert.
  • Bishop Schweikert validly consecrated Theodore Rematt.
  • Dec 1997: Archbishop Theodore Rematt (North American Old Roman Catholic Church) provisionally ordained Michael Wiest.

(See Exhibit A for the source.)

This is an Old Roman Catholic line of bishops, not “Old Catholic”, Old Roman Catholic. The distinction is important, because “Old Catholic” and “Old Roman Catholic” do not mean the same thing.

History lesson: “Old Catholic” generically refers to the Utrecht (Ultrajectine) group which was politically alienated in the 1800s. Most of this group fell away from the true faith and at some point lost at least one of the proper matter, form, or intent of the holy order sacrament. The Old Roman Catholics, however, never defected from truly valid sacraments, despite being descended originally from the Utrecht line. In fact, the Old Roman Catholics continue today using pre-1955 rubrics for all rituals.

The Dec 1997 ordination was provisional because earlier that month (8 December 1997), Fr. Michael Wiest was ordained in Rome by his Novus Ordo bishop. So, if the Novus Ordo ordination was not valid, then the traditional ordination at the hands of Archbishop Rematt certainly was valid.

The validity of the Old Roman Catholics has been reaffirmed several times by the Catholic Church, and continues to be reaffirmed even in the Vatican II groups today. (See Exhibit B.)

Thus all of the consecrations and ordination listed above were performed by valid ministers, with valid intent, in the traditional Latin rite, using pre-1955 rubrics.

Go search the web for the above names. All of the bishops named above exist. Search for all you want about them.

Archbishop Carfora traces lineage backward through the Utrecht (Ultrajectine) line, through the political alienation of the Old Diocese of Utrecht, to Pope Paul III in 1541.

Here is a full list:

Here is another full list:

Here is another full list going all the way back to St. Peter:

(Note: TNCCNA and Fr. Wiest have no affiliation whatsoever, both in the past and present. The only thing they have in common is Archbishop Carfora as a common point of apostolic succession. Also, take care that some of the bishops in the TNCCNA trace after Carfora are at least suspect. The assertion of a woman “bishop” goes against Catholic teaching because a man is required for valid matter of a bishopric consecration. This TNCCNA “Old Catholic” splinter group is certainly not an Old Roman Catholic group, even though it shares Archbishop Carfora as a common point in the lineage.)

2. Other important tidbits

Validity is not incardination. Therefore, Fr. Michael Wiest is neither affiliated nor obliged to direct superior obedience in the Old Roman Catholic Church. Fr. Michael Wiest is a traditional Roman Catholic priest, just like Monsignor Perez.

Also remember that I am just another computer guy with a computer science degree. I collected this information as I went. I am not a theologian, nor do I claim to be one. (The graph theory required to trace lineages, however, is inside my realm of expertise.)

3. Common objections

There is too much confusion.

That is a weak argument against validity, especially when the facts above are taken into account. A priest is a priest regardless of what naysayers say (especially laity) as long as the valid matter, form, and intent are present.

But… Old Catholics are not Catholics!

Stop right there! The above succession is Old Roman Catholic, not “Old Catholic”. Reread the historical note in the above section.

But, aren’t the Old Roman Catholics in schism?

I am not addressing that issue here. Schism has no effect on the validity of a sacrament, even though it might have an effect on the liceity. At worst, schism would make the sacrament illicit but still valid. Also remember that Fr. Wiest was never incardinated under the Old Roman Catholic diocese, so he is not obligated to direct obedience under them.

Why wouldn’t Fr. Wiest defend himself?

Why should anyone bother defending himself against a toxic network of gossipers who parrot baseless rumors? Sorry, but a person’s patience and tolerance are finite things. The point of this article is to help combat public disinformation about Fr. Wiest on the Internet.

I just don’t believe it…

That’s fine. Have a nice day! Thank you for reading this far. Feel free to reach out if you have a specific question.

Fr. Wiest and/or Monsignor Perez are in schism!

Hello, modern Catholic. We are what you once were. We believe what you once believed. We worship as you once worshiped. If we are wrong now, you were wrong then. If you were right then, we are right now. Have a nice day!

4. Feedback

Have more questions? Feel free to Contact me.

5. Exhibit A: Email correspondence between Fr. Michael Wiest and Archbishop Jerome Lloyd OSJV

(Unwound to make chronological reading easier. Also, direct contact information and irrelevant parts are snipped to avoid spam.)

From Fr. Wiest to the Archbishop:

Good Morning Your excellency. Greetings from sunny southern california (actually raining today, considering we are in a drought), orange country to be precise. My name is Rev. Fr. Michael Wiest. You may have remembered or at least seen me when I helped Fr. Thomas Gierke during the Holy Week masses in 2020. I am a proud Chicagoan but find myself in the past almost 2 years in the Los Angeles area where i was assinged to an independent Traditional Latin Mass church celebrating the Pre 1955 mass. My dear friend Msgr. Patrick Perez invitied me to come help me in Feb. 2021. Unfortunately, he died due to complications from Covid last November 18th 2021. I, too, was in the hospital for 7 weeks with Covid Pneumonia but thanks to almighty God survived. Upon his death I was eventually outsted from the parish by the priest of the society of St. Pius X. Im now living on my own with a Traditional Catholic Family where i offer the holy mass daily and teach classical Greek and classical Literature to 32 high school students at a classical Christian academy.

I was did my philosophy and theological training in Rome at the pontifical Athanaeum of the Holy Cross and the Pontifical Lateran University. I did some post graduate Studies in canon Law. I was ordained a priest in the novus ordo for an italian diocese since chicago was way to radical liberal for me under cardinal Bernadin, on December 8, 1997. Upon returning to my home chicago, I already knew Archbisop Theodore rematt and the former Bishop Schweikert for many years in the early 1980s. I asked Archbishop Rematt(Fr. Ted) if he would conditionally ordain me in the old Rite of the Liturgy since I had concerns/ questions about the validity of the Novus Ordo ordination rite. I was very kind and did the entire old rite ordination for me in front of my parents and family in December 1997. I also offered my first mass there in chicago at his cathedral of the sacred heart. i have a question, do you believe this conditional ordination was valid?

Im being questioned now by a lot of crazy traditionalist here in southern california. could you please clarify this for me. please. thank you.

Oremus Pro Invicem,
Rev. Fr. Michael Wiest

P.S., Bishop Nicolas Kelly gave me your email address and we are dear friends and i love him dearly as well as Fr. Tom

On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 01:33:22 PM PDT, Archbishop Jerome Lloyd OSJV <********> wrote:

(Emphasis by the editor)

Dear Fr Wiest

So wonderful to make your acquaintance after such a long time hearing of you from Fr Gierke and Bishop Kelly!

To answer your question. Archbishop Theodore Rematt was consecrated by Bishop Schweikert who was consecrated by Bishop Richard A Marchenna who was consecrated by Archbishop Carfora. So there is no doubt about the validity of your Old Roman ordination! All were consecrated according to the Pontificale Romanum. It would be hard for any serious detractor to doubt the occurrence of these consecrations and prove their invalidity. There is more certainty about the Old Roman succession than any Thuc or sedevacantist lineage!

I’m truly sorry to hear of the scandalous way things have changed at Our Lady Help of Christians following Msgr Perez’s passing. But I suppose we should be grateful they did not return to the Novus Ordo. God bless you in your fidelity to and efforts for Tradition! Don’t hesitate to reach out to me if I can be of any future service or support to you.

Wishing you every blessing and in full assurance of prayers for your well being and ministry.



The Titular Archbishop of Selsey
The Mt Revd Dr J Lloyd DD OSJV FRSA
M: ** E: ********

On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 07:46, Fr. Michael Wiest <********> wrote:

Good evening Archbishop. it a bit past 11 pm here in fullterton california(orange county). I just finishing my breviary and some final reading for my classes tomorrow at the Adelphia Classical Christian Academy in the city of Orange california. As I said in my previous email I teach Classical (attic) greek and classical literature to 32 high school students. It is a wonderful opportunity to weave Our Blessed Lord into the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle.( I think St. Thomas Aquinas did the same thing many years

Thank you for qualifying the validity of this ordination. There are a lot of very crazy traditionalists here and they all have strange and try to use their limited knowledge of canon law in order to validate a priest orders. Sadly I been the brunt of such horrible abuse after the death of my dear friend Msg. Patrick Perez in November 2021. Msgr and I were exceptionally close friends and I loved him dearly. He was a priests priest and was such a brillant scholarly gentleman with such great humility( he held a bachelors and master in geophysics from Stanford University, but he never spoke about it).


Thank you once again for clarifying all this. Im half enlish/welsh and german on my fathers side and my mother is a Persian Assyrian. My materal grandparents left Persia in 1905 because of the ottoman turks murdering assyrian Christians. My first language was assyrian aramaic. And Im also bi ritual and have the privelege of offering the ancient assyrian church of the east liturgy. I had asked the old patriarch of the church of the east to ordain me in this ancient rite so that i could validly celebrate this mass. Mar Dinkha. And Yet despite all this, the priests of Pius X still declare publicly that im not a validly ordained priest.

Oremus Pro Invicem,
Rev. Fr. Michael Wiest


On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 02:39:06 AM PDT, Archbishop Jerome Lloyd OSJV <********> wrote:

(Emphasis by the editor)

Dear Fr Wiest

Greetings! I would not hesitate to make it known that Bishop Mallerais FSSPX on meeting Bishop Kelly in Chicago (at a dinner party hosted by a mutual friend, the renowned contemporary traditionalist church composer, Kevin Allan), thanked him for the fidelity of the Old Romans through the conciliar changes and prior to the founding of the SSPX for providing the Traditional Mass! It is the early period of resistance history that sadly so many today are ignorant of - being used now to churches and steeples where once it was hotel rooms and Old Roman chapels that kept the light of the Faith! It was the Old Romans that provided holy Orders for the (now sedevacantist) CMRI!

I’m not familiar with Fr Burfitt, long after my time. But what evidence you have for your holy Orders frame and keep on display for all visitors to see! And by all means share my correspondence with anyone who may be interested. Advise parishioners who’ll listen to retain control over the church plant and not sign assets over to the SSPX, keep the future open to and trust in God’s Will.

The Old Roman polity is much the same as the SSPX’s “recognise and resist” except begun a hundred years earlier! The Dutch were never schismatic in the defence of their canonical prerogatives granted in perpetuity by previous Popes, stating several times to Papal legates their fidelity to the Holy See. It was Bl.Pius IX in a move not unlike the current Vatican/Sino agreement who, in 1853 annexed the original Dutch hierarchy by doing a deal with the secular authorities to recognise a new hierarchy in Holland. This despite a two hundred year extant canonical debate with the original Dutch hierarchy (and the support of every Canon Law faculty of the then great Catholic universities, eg Leuven, Salamanca, Braga, Paris, etc) and their faithful witness through Protestant penal times when they too were the “underground church”! It wasn’t until the schismatic German “Old Catholics” infiltrated Holland that the schismatical attitudes began to surface and that’s when Archbishop Mathew made his stand and Declaration of Independence from Utrecht in 1910, to preserve and continue the Old Roman polity.

To this day, despite the machinations of men and the vicissitudes of modern history, and the agendas of exaggerated personalities, we Old Romans are still here! Preserving and continuing authentic Catholic Tradition, accepting all that is good and consistent with that Tradition and avoiding and rejecting all that which is not. We pray for the Holy Father “cum famulo” and pray for the day when Rome will be restored to the perennial magisterium and ourselves to her bosom as faithful sons. As Ss. Robert Bellarmine and Thomas Cajetan, theologians and canonists from Suarez to Kwasniewski and the law of the Church (both Codes) itself affirm, he is not schismatic who resists with grave reservations the Pope, but would submit the moment those causes were removed, and in this we enjoy the fraternal company of the late Archbishop Lefebvre in our resistance.

True, for us, history has not been so kind in the retention of our past glories, ie we have lost our material inheritance, endured the ignominy of the ignorant and often been regarded as fools for our fidelity… however… we have retained the Faith, the authentic “lex orandi” and the abiding presence of the promised Paraclete, Who must be guiding and preserving us for God’s Will and plan. Why else would we still be here? We are that “faithful remnant” the then Fr Joseph Ratzinger prophesied about in 1969 on (ironically today) German radio:

“From the crisis of today the Church of tomorrow will emerge — a Church that has lost much. She will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes, so it will lose many of her social privileges. In contrast to an earlier age, it will be seen much more as a voluntary society, entered only by free decision. As a small society, it will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members. Undoubtedly it will discover new forms of ministry and will ordain to the priesthood approved Christians who pursue some profession. In many smaller congregations or in self-contained social groups, pastoral care will normally be provided in this fashion. Along-side this, the full-time ministry of the priesthood will be indispensable as formerly. But in all of the changes at which one might guess, the Church will find her essence afresh and with full conviction in that which was always at her center: faith in the triune God, in Jesus Christ, the Son of God made man, in the presence of the Spirit until the end of the world. In faith and prayer she will again recognize the sacraments as the worship of God and not as a subject for liturgical scholarship.

“The Church will be a more spiritual Church, not presuming upon a political mandate, flirting as little with the Left as with the Right. It will be hard going for the Church, for the process of crystallization and clarification will cost her much valuable energy. It will make her poor and cause her to become the Church of the meek. The process will be all the more arduous, for sectarian narrow-mindedness as well as pompous self-will will have to be shed. One may predict that all of this will take time. The process will be long and wearisome as was the road from the false progressivism on the eve of the French Revolution — when a bishop might be thought smart if he made fun of dogmas and even insinuated that the existence of God was by no means certain — to the renewal of the nineteenth century. But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret.

“And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. It may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but it will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.”

If that does not describe us Old Romans - who does it describe? So have heart, dear Father, remain faithful, and though the fruition of God’s Will may not be made known to either of us in our life times, we can believe that His Will will be made known by those who come after us, “semper fidelis”! If ever I have the good fortune to be able to travel to California I would do so expressly to realise your invitation.

Oremus pro invicem



From: Fr. Michael Wiest <********>
To: Archbishop Jerome Lloyd OSJV <********>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 06:19:50 AM PDT

Good Morning Excellency,

Its 532 am here in fullterton ca and im up offering my humble prayers to almighty God and am reading your email. I had to stop reading from all the tears flowing from this face.WOW, WOW, WOW,. So magnificently written with beautiful undertone of great love and joy and humility in the midst of it all. Father, you have touched my sad and injured heart. i never like to complain, but I have suffered more greatly this past year than in any other time of my life, physically and mentally. I have been offered all this up in silence as a suffering for our dear Lord.


Thank you my dear Bishop for your beautiful words and email, still crying as i write this. Not sure if it is making any sense. You have filled my injured heart with such joy and soothing this early morning.

Please lets stay in touch. My hightest esteemed regard for you father.

In Christ Jesus humble heart,

(Rev. Fr.) Michael Wiest

6. Exhibit B: Sacramental Validity Guide for RCIA Coordinators and Canditates

Once again, the Catholic Church, even in the grip of Vatican II, reaffirms the validity of the sacraments of the Old Roman Catholic Church, even though the modernists claim that they “lack full incorporation in the Catholic Church.”

Examples of true Churches are: all Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian Church of the East (formerly known as the Nestorians), Polish National Church, Old Catholic Church, and S.S.P.X. (Society of St. Pius X). In these Churches all of their Sacraments are valid, even though they lack full incorporation in the Catholic Church.

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